Concerned about getting the best build experience for your renovation or new build project?

Director and Builder at Two Tone Construction, Anthony Hickey, recently finished a renovation project with HOME Method members, Tanya and Paul.

In our conversation, you’ll learn how to work well with your builder so you can improve your build experience, your working relationship with your builder, and your home overall.

Listen to the episode now.

Hello! This is Episode 360, and I’m back with Part 2 of my conversation with builder, Anthony Hickey, from Melbourne-based Two Tone Construction. Anthony recently completed a renovation project with HOME Method members, Tanya and Paul, and as he said in Part 1, they’ve redefined his benchmark for his ideal client!

In this episode, Anthony and I talk about how to set up effective communication between a builder and a client, especially when you’re a client who has invested in getting educated and informed, and you’re wondering how a builder might welcome your input and involvement in your own project.

Anthony also shares his recommendations for how to find the right builder to work with, how to work well with your builder, and when to get them on board to achieve the best outcome.

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE NOW.

If you haven’t listened to Part 1 of the conversation, head back to Episode 359, where you’ll hear Anthony discuss his pre-construction involvement, and the processes he used to set up a great working relationship with his HOME Method clients. You can find that here >>> Part 1, Episode 359.

If you’ve been wondering what to expect during the construction of your new build or renovation, and how to have a great project experience by choosing a builder who respects your desired investment and collaboration, you’ll love this conversation.

Anthony is the founder and director of Two Tone Construction, a boutique home renovation and construction company located in the inner-west suburbs of Melbourne. 

Specialising in high-end major renovations, extensions, and new builds in the western suburbs of Melbourne, they work closely with you to develop your vision for your unique home.

At the time of recording, Anthony is a much-loved member of Live Life Build’s ELEVATE. 

Live Life Build is another business I have with Co-Founder and Builder, Duayne Pearce, where we teach and mentor builders in how to improve their projects, businesses and lives. ELEVATE is our group coaching and mastermind program for custom residential builders, and Two Tone Construction is also listed as a PAC Process TRAINED builder – and you’ll learn more in our conversation about what that means.

And a quick note of clarification – you’ll hear Anthony refer to the design team on this project as ‘architects’, however the team who worked on this project is AlterEco, a practice of building designers and interior designers. So, different to registered architects, hence the clarification, but clearly the right fit for this client and project.

Now, let’s dive in!

This is the transcript of my conversation with Anthony about his experience of building a renovation for HOME Method members, Tanya and Paul.

Amelia Lee
I’m curious how, then also, the communication was generally. You mentioned previously that you found that they were well-versed. How did you find that an educated client was to communicate with both before the construction, and during the construction.

Anthony Hickey
So, I guess the pre-construction side of things, it was between the clients myself and the architect. So, we were all CC-ed into the same conversation. So there was a big old amount of emails going through, but initially that’s how we would be communicating. And that was somewhat tedious at times, just because there was so much information coming through. But, I guess, once we got to the construction side of things, I can’t stress enough how important the weekly site meetings are. Compared to other projects, the amount of phone calls or emails that were coming through were so minimal. And if anything, it might have been me just being impatient. I didn’t want to wait till Wednesday at 7am so I’d be touching base with Tanya or Paul, but, yeah, it was such a smooth, easy project to work with them, alongside them. 

And the communication side of things, predominantly, I’d say 90% of the communication was done at that site meeting. Anything that fell out of that side of things was always the phone calls were done in between work hours, which is always a tick for us. And anything that was pressing would be phone call or email. But because we were ahead of the game with our weekly meetings, we would preempt that and talk that in the weekly meeting prior. So yeah, there was no real stresses and no real heavy communication that wasn’t needed to be had.

Amelia Lee
Yeah, I know that there can be a wariness that some homeowners have, that they’re going to be treading on their builders toes by getting themselves informed and educated for their construction process. In the communication that you’re having with these clients, it’s very clear that they had a rhythm for how they were doing things. You had the site meetings. You had those minutes happening. You had those conversations and those kinds of things. I mean, I know you’re an incredible person, so I think I know the answer to this, but for the benefit of people who are worried, I suppose, about treading on their builders toes, what’s your response to that, in terms of you feeling like people are over doing the thing, or they’re trying to navigate, or be too informed or too invested in the process?

Anthony Hickey
From experience, certainly from this job in particular, the more well-versed our clients are, the smoother the process it is for us. I’m sure there might be builders out there that, through insecurities of their own, they don’t feel they want clients to have more information. But the reality is, the more our clients knew that there was things that would pop up that our clients would know before I did, it’s not something that I was well-versed in, whether it be a type of finish or a type of whatever bench top or cladding, and so I was learning from them as well. I guess it depends on, hopefully, the connection you have with the builder and the builder you choose. But the reality is, we’re all just trying to get better in an industry that is forever changing. 

And so, I can’t have all the answers, and if I get to learn from someone who has put the effort in to learn and grow and, I guess, expand their knowledge, then I’m all for it, and I’m better for it as well, and so is my business. So, yeah, I think it’s great.

Amelia Lee
That’s awesome. Their expectations generally, their ability to handle you mentioned the variation and they were quite relaxed, did you find that they could work really well with you collaboratively, that there was a high level of trust and that those expectations were managed really well?

Anthony Hickey
Yes, again, I don’t want to keep harping on Live Life Build, but managing fine expectations is super important. And for myself being a bit of a perfectionist, when we are renovating a home that’s 100-120 years old that has hard plaster on double brick and certain rooms that we weren’t necessarily touching… There was blemishes in the walls that weren’t in the scope to be re-plastering. There was walls that were out by 30 or 40 mil, we were keeping the cornices. And so, my brain would spin a little bit, or my head would spin, but again, going back to these site meetings, I would explain exactly how certain things would look, what’s been allowed for, and how it would finish, and they were super appreciative of that. Again, I talk about being an oversharer, and I was probably doing the same for them, so sometimes they might have had to get to work and I was still gas bagging, but I guess making sure that they understood what was happening and how it would look, which also gives them the ability, if they had any queries about that, or they had an assumption to be a certain way differently, I could explain why it wouldn’t be, or potentially say why we could make it that way. 

It’s super important to not assume for both parties. And so, yeah, it was just clear communication.

Amelia Lee
And I know too, like many of our HOME Method members, these clients were very sustainably-minded. Can you talk through how that worked in some of the choices that you made during construction, in terms of how you dealt with some specific things on site?

Anthony Hickey
Yeah. So again, this is a credit to Tanya. I have never met someone that was so successful in Marketplace. We did a good, great deconstruction of the property, but there was a lot of stuff that we were able to take out so that it could be sold. Not only would it save the clients money, because we weren’t using skips to be throwing them out, but it was actually being repurposed for someone else to use, and it was putting money in their pocket as well so that they could spend it however they see fit, hopefully on the project. So, from a sustainable sense in that essence, Tanya was incredible. 

The other side of the coin for the sustainability side of things is we invested in really good windows, in the uPVC windows, which was from Thermotek, and they were incredible to work with. We talked about the insulation again, so completely insulating the envelope, which meant that the energy efficiency side of things meant that their energy output to be able to heat and cool the home was going to be drastically reduced compared to what it was before we had touched it, which is amazing. 

That’s what we’re all working towards, to try and keep our energy bills down and live as comfortably as possible. So yeah, that was a really exciting project to be a part of. And was also super exciting to work alongside Altereco, which is the architects that really do that, do a great deal of work in that field, and they do a great job of it.

Amelia Lee
So, you’re obviously dealing with homeowners day in, day out, and you’ve done so for a long time in your building career, what do you see are the main problems that homeowners contend with in their projects and in working with builders?

Anthony Hickey
First one for me would be the Tender process, as we discussed before, I think that really can leave a very bitter taste in the mouth of all involved. It baffles me that it’s still something that goes on. And like I said earlier, the ability to be able to engage a builder during the pre-construction so you can actually make the design suit your budget or your construction spend is the best way to make sure that that project comes to fruition and gets to a point where you are in construction. The second one would be, I guess, the media’s narrative of what builders are like out there. We are not all bad. 95% of us take real pride in our work and are continuing to try and learn and grow, both personally and for our businesses, so we can do the best possible work we can for the clients. So hopefully, just breaking that narrative is what we’re all here to do. And I guess the other one that I see is the fear of the unexpected variation. So again, I don’t want to sound like a broken record with the pre-construction, but that’s part and parcel of what we try to do, to mitigate those extra variations that don’t need to be there by doing our due diligence in the pre-construction, by being able to inspect and become aware of the site settings and what we’ve got there to work with so we don’t effectively allow for anything we don’t have to, and make sure we allow for everything we do. 

All those potential challenges or worries of the clients, if they do their due diligence, they’re not there, and you just need to pick right and like we said before, go with your gut, but be well-informed, and you’ll be fine.

Amelia Lee
I think that the renovations is where the PAC process comes into its own in terms of being able to do all of that due diligence on site and understand the building. 

So often, I talk to homeowners about the fact that when they get a renovation priced, particularly if they’re going to Tender, they’ll be thinking about, ‘Oh, our renovation is going to involve this. We want to add these spaces. We want to redo bathrooms and kitchens. We want to add on more living space. And at the same time, we’re going to do a bunch of maintenance stuff that the house needs anyway, because it’s an old home, and you’ve got to maintain old homes.’ And so it’ll be like replacing roof, upgrading electrical, upgrading plumbing, changing windows, all of that kind of stuff. And they’ll get this price back and feel like they’re not doing a lot of work yet the price is reflecting all of these maintenance requirements. And at the same time, if they’ve done it to Tender, the builder will be building in a lot of risk of those unknowns. Or the flip side is the builder will price what they’ve priced, but then you’ll be kicked with a heck of a lot of variations during construction, as you mentioned. And the homeowner can put their hands in the air and go, “Oh no, I’m not getting anything for my money. I’m not going to do this whole project.” And they forget that there was all of this maintenance work that actually needed to be done in order for the house to still be livable and durable and all of that kind of stuff. 

So, yeah, it’s really interesting to see how to approach that thinking about getting a builder’s help during the design phase for costing and buildability input, so that you can think more logically about those maintenance requirements, and then also factor in the costing of those into the improvements to the house, so that the overall project scope really reflects what needs to be done for the house to live on and be comfortable and durable long term, and is getting you the biggest bang for buck in the budget that you have to spend. So, it’s awesome to see that you’re helping homeowners do that that way. And then also managing that risk being able to roll under floors. 

I mean, I can imagine, with you, insulating under the floor of this home and replacing windows and reconfiguring rooms and things like that, there would have been such value in that inspection work that you would have done during pre construction, just to understand how that house was put together and what was going to be the problem if you did X, Y and Z, versus doing A, B and C. So, it’s such useful information for the client, and also, as an architect, I know it’s incredibly useful information because there’s so many different ways that we can create an outcome for a homeowner that delivers on their goals for the project. But if you’re working with an existing house, one package of ways might mean certain amount of money, and another package of ways might mean another spend of money. So, yeah, I love that you’re being able to work with homeowners that way, Anthony. 

Now, just to talk about that budget piece a little bit more, I know that homeowners, my experience doing this for a really long time, is that homeowners will have a list of wishes and wants that they have in their project or their design brief, and then they’ll have a budget that they’ll have figured out is the amount of money that they want to spend, and that budget will be 50 to 75% of where it actually needs to meet the list of wishes and wants. People’s expectations are always out. It’s been like that as long as I’ve been doing this. It’s not related to construction cost increases or anything like that. They say renovating costs you twice as much as you expect it will. My feeling is that people’s expectations are half as much as the reality is. And the thing is that the builders are often at the coalface of this, particularly if you’re Tendering, because you’re the ones that have to be the bearer of bad news, that no, this vision that you have for your project isn’t going to be able to be delivered for that amount of money that you have to spend on it. 

How do you discuss this with homeowners? And how do you suggest homeowners actually think about this for their projects?

Anthony Hickey
Yep. So again, we keep coming back to the pre-construction or the PAC process, but as early as possible, engaging a builder to be able to get an understanding of costing prior to going too far down the path with the architectural drawings is key. So, we’d love to get involved when it’s at concept stage, and we can give rough understandings of what that will cost. We’ve got project sheets of previous jobs, which we can correlate based on when we built it to a rough square metre. Now, this is always very much an estimate, because the different finishes, the different site settings, whatever it be. Not all jobs are the same, especially in renovating, but it gives an understanding of the clients a ballpark of where it would sit. And then from there, we can work on starting to elaborate as to what we put in there, and work it towards where their budget is. Sometimes at that initial concept design stage where we give estimates, that’s enough to really not put a pin in it, but to shock them a bit. And then that’s where we can start working on what do we want to achieve out of this project, and where does the client see value? And so, how can we best spend this budget, or the construction spend, or do we need to look at how do we go about getting more money, or where do we go from here? 

But to be able to do that while it’s still very early on in the piece, and very much just lines on the paper, as opposed to going down the Tender route, we’re talking 10s of 1000s of dollars you would save. And again, yeah, it’s a no brainer. It’s the key to get this project to fruition. Yeah, that’s how we go about it. As early as possible, discuss based on previous jobs that we’ve done, and go from there.

Amelia Lee
How do you find it personally to have those confronting conversations with a homeowner who’s coming with this, their dreams and vision and then this bundle of money, and inevitably, we’ll find out very quickly that it’s not going to be enough? How do you personally, as a builder, handle being the person that might have to deliver that news to them? 

Anthony Hickey
Yeah, I was just chuckling because it’s one of my favorite things to do. I love it.

Amelia Lee
He’s so sarcastic.

Anthony Hickey
It’s definitely uncomfortable, because, again, we won’t say people pleasers, but we very much care about what we do and we care about the people we are trying to work with. And I feel like I’m talking to my wife, it’s done from a place of love, but it is very much necessary. So, we get straight into it. I call myself the velvet sledgehammer sometimes so it’s done very nicely, but the facts are still there. “This is what the cost implications are, and unfortunately, I can’t build for any less. I know what my overheads are, and we’re not throwing figures to make millions of dollars. This is just how much it costs. We either change the scope to meet your budget, or we need to find some more money.” 

So to answer your question, it’s done from a place of love and just honest and authentic. It is what it is. It’s not my job to make their budget work with the design that they have. It’s my job to explain to them the cost implications of what their project looks like.

Amelia Lee
Yeah, I love that you explained it like that. I think that a lot of professionals can make the mistake of trying to tell a homeowner what they can and can’t afford, without understanding what the value metrics or priorities of that homeowner is. And we talk a lot inside Elevate about how it’s actually the job of the professional to educate the homeowner about what they want costs, and then it’s the homeowners role to decide whether those costs represent value for them. And what’s expensive and what’s cheap to anybody is a completely subjective interpretation of the data, and so helping a homeowner be educated about that becomes super important. But as I was saying earlier, money can be a very awkward conversation, and so thank you for sharing where it would come from a place of utmost kindness that you’re saying. And this is a problem, is that it’s actually far kinder for a homeowner to find that out at the beginning of their journey than 10 months or 12 months or 18 months down the track, where they’ve got a completely approved set of documentation, they’ve invested tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars in, and they go to Tender and then discover that they can’t afford this thing, and they’ve already mentally moved into it. They’ve already planned their life around the timeline of it, and it’s incredibly demoralising at that point. So yeah, the earlier the better, as you say. 

Now, I wanted to ask you. I know that homeowners often worry about wasting a builder’s time by speaking to them about their project, about connecting with them. Particularly, I know a lot of homeowners are often trying to weigh up, they might be thinking of different options for doing their project. For example, it might be, do they go up at a second story? Do they go out, do they demolish a significant part of their home and do a more significant reno? Do they do a smaller transformation? Do they do a knock down rebuild, which I know you won’t be necessarily dealing with in your area? However, I know that some people might be thinking, ‘Well, do I renovate this, or do I just sell up and find somewhere else to live?’ 

And so they get concerned that if they start having conversations with a builder to try and suss this out more accurately, that they’re going to be wasting your time as the builder and inconveniencing you. What do you suggest homeowners do in how they think about this? What’s your advice to them, so that they can actually take step forwards in their project without necessarily feeling like this, and also without legitimately wasting your time as a builder. How do you suggest this gets navigated?

Anthony Hickey
Well, we are a business at the end of the day. Just call us. To be honest, I have these conversations numerous times a week with parents at my daughter’s school. They say that I’m a builder, and they pepper questions, and I’m happy to answer because it’s not hard for me to give them advice purely off conversations, depending on how far they’ve gone in the process. All builders tend to have connections with architects or drafts people. So, we can just help navigate and let you know what the next steps would be. But if you don’t call us or reach out to us on Instagram or whatever it is, we can’t help you. 

So, please don’t be uncomfortable about reaching out to us, because that’s our job. And for us to be able to continue to create a great business, we need people to have these questions and be asking us, because it starts the communication, it starts the relationship. And if we’re to help you out there, hopefully it works out that you’ll then want us to be able to help you in the build. So, just call.

Amelia Lee
And Anthony, when people are actually looking for a builder to work with, what do you suggest that they need to specifically look for or ask of a builder when they’re interviewing them, to make sure that they’re bringing the right team member on board? Questions that they should ask, things that they should think about, what are your suggestions for that?

Anthony Hickey
I don’t know if this will be a bit controversial, but after being a part of Live Life Build and knowing how much it’s changed my business, my first question would be, does the builder seek any outside mentorship or coaching? Because, like I said, that’s been the biggest game changer for us. We talk about not knowing what you don’t know. And I was an incredible carpenter, and call myself a builder as far as the building sense, but I had so much to learn as far as the back end, running a business and knowing our numbers. So that would be a big tick for me if a builder is someone who is trying to continually grow, not only as a person, but in their business and learn. So, that would be a big one. 

The second one would be to ask if you can be one of the jobs that they’ve previously finished, and speak to the clients, either or both, ideally. Again, I say this not only because it means you’ll be able to see the work that they can produce, but the fact that you’re able to go to a property that they’ve finished and the clients are now living in and the clients allow you to go in there and then be able to speak to them, will soon let you know if the builder was a good builder, if they had a good relationship, if the quality was to a high standard. And for us, we keep talking about relationships, which is big for our business. We push it onto our potential clients to go and see our projects and speak to our clients, because thankfully, they have nothing but glowing reviews, and hopefully well into the future, we keep having that. But that just gives you a real understanding of how that builder operates, and it’s not coming directly from the builder. Obviously, I sound like I can sell snake oil or whatever it is, but the reality is the work and the people speak for themselves, and that will give you a real, honest and authentic understanding of the builder. 

And the last one is just through your communication, try and understand if you guys click, if your values align. We’ve found our best clients are the ones that, for us, are quite similar in, for me, it’s age and young kids. This area, we have a lot of young families that are slowly growing and needing to expand their houses, and that tends to be our clientele. I guess, being in a project, if you get in with pre-construction to then construction, that process could be two years. But the relationship after, not only from a legal point as far as the builder having responsibilities and warranties, but in general. It is a big relationship, and if you get it right, then they become a friend. And I’m not putting down the throats of my clients that I want to be their best friends, but the reality is, I do. I want to be able to have these relationships. 

And so if you can work out that you guys align in certain ways, and you get a good feel, that goes a long way. Because if you can, I guess, get replies and promptly be replied to from the builder from an early standpoint, and you guys connect and share values, that’s going to put you in good stead to have a really good relationship moving forward.

Amelia Lee
Yeah, they’re great tips, Anthony, thank you for sharing that. I know that a lot of homeowners get concerned about, what if I’m only being shown the projects that the builder wants me to see, and they’re not showing me the projects that were difficult or that they didn’t do too well, but I think that ability to actually have the conversation with the client goes a long way to understanding how that relationship worked. 

I know of HOME Method members who have looked through the builder’s previous projects, and they’ve just slipped letters into letter boxes and things like that, because some builders are not very good at keeping that ongoing connection with their clients post-project. And yet, understanding what a builder’s previous work and previous relationship with is super important to understanding whether they’re going to be able to work with you well. So, I love that your goal is to ensure that you’re setting up good relationships with these clients, so that they are open to having your potential clients come around and see the house and be able to connect with them. Because, I mean, it’s a testament to you as a builder that you’ve got clients that you can ask that of. Because that means that they potentially have to be available to speak to your potential clients, they have to be ready to clean their house for your potential clients to see and come over. 

And so, it’s a true testament to you that you’ve got clients that have loved working with you so much that they’re willing to do that to help you continue to deliver and work with homeowners in this way. So, I think that’s awesome.

Anthony Hickey
Sorry. I’m just giggling up. I’m lucky enough, we talk about the relationship side of things. So, on the street that I live on, we’re just about to start our sixth project. And it’s not a long street, but some of the previous jobs we’ve had, and the clients, when they’ve come to this point, there’s a couple of these houses that I get them to walk down in in our street, and I feel uncomfortable because there’s a couple of clients that continually, they might have three or four visitors a year that are our potential clients. And thankfully, they’re so lovely that they keep letting us through. 

They’ve got young kids themselves. So, I know how our house looks after a school drop off. I’m not sure I’d be having people come through my house, but they allow it. And yes, I’m super appreciative of our previous clients, that’s for sure.

Amelia Lee
You keep saying you’re lucky. It’s not luck, mate, you’ve built this. This happens because of the work that you’ve done, both on yourself, on your business, and in the way that you work with clients. So it’s not luck. So now, did you have anything else to add before we wrap up?

Anthony Hickey
I’d have to do shout outs. I’m so incredibly grateful to be on this podcast and to be even looked at as someone that would be worthy of coming on here. So thank you very much. We talk about, as parents, it takes a village to raise our children, and I feel like it takes a village to raise a building company and a builder in particular, or a business owner. My support that I get from my wife and my parents, and I’ve got my favourite uncle, Bill, which I always talk about on our little Facebook page, but without the support of those guys, and my close friends, and I guess my team as well, my team of carpenters that really do all the heavy lifting on site. Without this team that I have, I wouldn’t be where I am today, and I certainly wouldn’t be as optimistic about how our business is going and looking forward to the future. So, I know my wife and family have certainly taken the reins sometimes when I’ve started to stress out a little bit with all the business side of things early on, and thankfully, they’ve been the voice of reason the whole time. And yeah, can’t thank them enough. So I guess that’s pretty much it. 

Other than that, if you’re anywhere near the inner west and ever look like you want to be renovating, look up Two Tone Construction on Instagram or give us a call. We would love to chat to you. We’re very much looking forward to what our future holds for Two Tone Construction and the quality of projects we’re bringing, and we would love to meet you.

Amelia Lee
Yeah, that’s awesome, Anthony. I can’t thank you enough for your time here. I think what I love most about our conversation is hearing how open and how communicative you are, not only about your experience in working with these particular HOME Method members, but in running your business generally, and also your appetite for growth and improvement. To me, that’s one of the things that I regularly say to our HOME Method members is the industry is rapidly changing. There’s so much to contend with as professionals operating inside this industry, as we really do pick up the pace on the quality of construction, of energy efficiency, of thermal performance of homes here, and try and catch up on a lot of lag that we’ve experienced because of delays in legislation changes. And so for me, I see that it can be challenging as a professional to stay on top of all of those changes. For a homeowner, I think looking for somebody to work with, the most significant thing to look for is, does that professional that you’re speaking with or choosing have an appetite to learn, to embrace suggestions to, as you said, some of the things that Tanya and Paul were bringing to you were new to you, but your appetite was that, “Well, I’m here to learn, and so let me dig into the trenches and find out more about this.” And I think that, to me, is the sign of a truly collaborative partner as you’re navigating your project and the kind of relationship that you want to create with the people that you’re working with, be it your builder, your architect or your designer. 

So, I really love that you have brought that kind of energy to this conversation. I know that this will be really useful for those that are listening. I’m so grateful that you were able to come on and talk about your insights as a builder working with HOME Method members, and really highlight the difference that being educated and informed as a homeowner can make to the project and your experience of that. So yeah, can’t thank you enough for being here, Anthony, it’s been absolutely awesome.

Anthony Hickey
Oh, my absolute pleasure. Thank you.

RESOURCES:

You can find Anthony Hickey from Two Tone Construction here:

• Website >>> https://twotoneconstruction.com/
• Instagram >>> https://www.instagram.com/twotoneconstruction/

Access the support and guidance you need to be confident and empowered when renovating and building your family home inside my flagship online program, HOME METHOD >>> https://undercoverarchitect.com/courses/the-home-method/

Learn more about how to interview and select the right builder with the Choose Your Builder mini-course >>> https://undercoverarchitect.com/courses/choose-your-builder 

My free ’44 Ways’ E-Book will simplify sustainability for you, and help you create a healthy, low tox and sustainable home – whatever your dreams, your location or your budget. Access your copy here >>> https://undercoverarchitect.com/ways