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The Granny Flat Dilemma: Custom, PreFab or Kit, with Jan and Landon

Want to build a granny flat? You might be experiencing the granny flat dilemma!

Do you design and build your granny flat as a custom project, prefab or kit?

What’s more affordable? And how do you compare each option with each other?

Passive House home builders, and HOME Method members, Jan and Landon, are weighing up what to do, and so we discuss the options and what to consider.

Listen to the episode now.

Hello! This is Episode 339, and I’m continuing my conversation with Jan and Landon about their new build in Sydney’s north on an amazing site that’s been in Landon’s family for many years.

In fact, it’s where Landon grew up, and after 39 years of living together in another part of Sydney, Jan and Landon are selling up, and moving to this location they both love and have a strong connection with, to build a new, Passive House home.

Jan and Landon are both in their 70s and are retired teachers. And their project has an amazing range of specific demands including how they’ll age well and healthily, still being able to live an active life, whilst preparing for various scenarios that may occur. And also be able to accommodate family, especially adult grandchildren who also live or stay with them.

If you missed Part 1 of my conversation with Jan and Landon, head back to Episode 338 to catch up and learn more about their story.

We kick off this episode with me asking Jan and Landon about how HOME Method, which they joined right before choosing their architect, has helped them navigate their project so far.

And as the episode continues, we dive into some questions that Jan and Landon had for me, especially about the best approach for them to include and build a granny flat on their site, and when and how to involve a landscape architect or landscape designer.

Listen as I run through some of the key criteria to be aware of when selecting a building methodology for a granny flat, and what to consider to help the project run smoothly. We also discuss some design options to review, and cost comparison of prefabrication vs building on site.

And, I also talk through some landscape design ideas, and the way a landscape design approach could integrate with their architectural design to maximise the benefits of the site overall and meet their brief as well.

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE NOW.

Before we jump into my conversation with Jan and Landon, let me share some info about their timeline.

Jan and Landon joined HOME Method in January of 2024, and we recorded this conversation in September of 2024, when their design process is underway.

I think you can hear from the range of homeowner guests we’ve had on the podcast just how varied the membership of HOME Method is: in homeowner type, age and location. 

What I love so much about HOME Method, is that it’s not for one style of project, or one particular age bracket. 

The common themes I can hear these homeowners discuss on the podcast are that they value sustainability and functionality in their homes. 

They know design makes a difference to the performance and livability of their home long-term. 

They’re keen to be involved in their projects, and actively driving the project journey, working collaboratively with their teams. 

And they’re concerned about being super intentional in what and how they design, build or renovate, ensuring they’re creating a home that uniquely suits them, plus maximises the potential of their budget, and is flexible, durable and supports the changes in their lifestyle into the future.

I think that’s the kind of homeowners that love hanging out in the Undercover Architect community, and definitely who love joining HOME Method. You’re doing your thing, in all the myriad of ways a home can be created. 

And so it’s so beautiful to be sharing these wide and varied project and homeowner stories on the podcast, and hear the amazing insights, experiences and learnings the incredible HOME Method members are sharing as well.

This is the transcript of my conversation with Jan and Landon about their project, and their specific questions about granny flats and landscape design.

Amelia Lee
Can I ask you, you joined HOME Method, your onboarding form came to us in January as well. So it must have been around all the same time as you choosing an architect and making a call?

Jan
Yep, it all happened. So I think we started, I was really interested in the whole idea of the team. I loved learning about the team. I had no idea of the number of people that were involved, and who would we use and when. So we went ahead. We’d already had the surveyor, and we’d already had the soil tech people come in and all of that. But knowing those things that you had down, who they are, what they do, and even how much is an average cost of those, that was all really helpful. That allays anxiety, I think. Otherwise, it’s just so much information you don’t even know you don’t know. As soon as we’d started it, then we were keen to get started. Being the age we are, it’s not like we’ve got forever. Oh, and nobody’s got forever, but we did have to get a move on.

Amelia Lee
You want to enjoy it, don’t you?

Jan
Yeah, exactly.

Amelia Lee
Have you had any examples, I suppose, of where it’s helped you avoid mistakes or just set you up for better decision making in the process overall?

Jan
In terms of the decision making, without having some specifics, but I think all the way along, we’d refer back to HOME Method about choosing the architect, even little things like having a separate email account for the people involved in the building has been very useful. That was really useful. And the interview questions, who’s in the team, all of those things, who knows what mistakes we would have made if we didn’t have them? It’s hard to know. We haven’t made those mistakes so we don’t know.

Landon
We’ve got a feeling that we’re on basically trying to do things as efficiently as possible. I think we’re basically following up steps. We’ll set up the next step, rather than having to go back and redo things. But keeping a big book, instead of bits of paper, that’s been quite beautiful.

Jan
It’s in a book, it means we can take it with us everywhere we go, and anything. So when we went to the factory with the builder, and we had our book, and we were able to write things. When we have a meeting with the architect, we write it in. Anything. When the surveyor came, then we write it down, and it just means everything is there and we can refer back to it. Sometimes we’ve written things in there that we’ve been listening to on a podcast that seems relevant and so on. The podcasts have been fabulous.

Amelia Lee
I love it. The paper trail’s so important because it’s such a long process and involves so many conversations and decisions, you can’t possibly hold it all in your head.

Landon
I’ve also got a spreadsheet on the computer. I’m always confused with when they are on the Grand Designs, when they say, how much did it cost, blah blah. And I’m thinking, what are they talking about, just the building or are they talking about everything, like fees, this that and the other? And I mean, I’m not sure how much it’s going to cost, but I’d like to know at the end. And so I’m putting down as much as I can of everything, even getting the plans printed and things like that, the little stuff mostly and the big stuff. It’s not really helping with the design so much, at least we’ll know at the end what it did cost.

Jan
And I just wanted to go back to the red book in the front. I had a little summary of the things that were important to us, that we wanted in our house, and I put it in the front of the book, so whenever I got the collywobbles, a bit nervous, and that’s happened a few times. “Oh god, why are we doing this?” I go back and I read it, and I think, “Of course, that’s why we’re doing it. Don’t lose track.”

Amelia Lee
Oh, that’s brilliant. Yeah, you’ve got to have that place to come back to and remember what is actually driving this. Oh, awesome. Do you want to dive into any questions that you have for me that you wanted to chat about based on where you’re at in your project? You were talking initially about the granny flat, and your curiosity around that, you want to talk through that?

Jan
The architect is asking us now how we want to do the granny flat. The granny flat would be very expensive as a Passive House build, and the builder has said that to us, and we still want to do it. The architect has suggested that we could possibly have something that was prefabricated and completed, or nearly completed, and craned into the site. And that’s another possibility, though there’s a lot of steel involved, and in terms of thermal efficiency, maybe, to me, that seems counterproductive, as to what we’re trying to do with the house. Or we could do a kit home. I’ve even thought we could get a tiny house and toting. So we haven’t come up with a definitive answer for her, and it’s almost in the too hard basket. So have you got any suggestions?

Amelia Lee
How big are we talking in terms when you say granny flat, what do you want to be in it?

Jan
Not the 60 square metres that you’re allowed. I think, probably maybe 45 or something. One bedroom place it would be for one person, really.

Amelia Lee
So bedroom, kitchen, bathroom, living area, basically.

Jan
Yeah, and maybe a little sitting area outside that just could be a courtyard or something, so not huge.

Amelia Lee
And do you want the flexibility of it being able to be put in and pulled out? Or does that not faze you at all?

Jan
No, that was just me thinking of maybe that’s another possibility, but it was too much. I don’t know. We don’t want that flexibility.

Amelia Lee
And can it be a slab on ground where it’s located?

Landon
Yeah.

Jan
I think so.

Landon
Is that the cheapest way of doing it?

Amelia Lee
If it’s a flat site, then generally, you’ll find that’s going to be more cost effective than doing piers and stumps and an elevated structure. Also thermally, it’ll often rate better as well, based on the orientation as well, but from that point of view. And so, has the general conversation between the architect and the builder been that if you get the builder that you’re working with for the house to do it, they’ll want to do it to Passive House standards, and it’s not going to be cost effective given the size of the project? Has that been the general conversation to date? So you’ve been looking at other avenues and other builders and other options?

Jan
We’re just trying to keep it within a certain budget. Yes, they both thought that it was going to add too much to our budget. The part of us think, will we stretch it? And this is where it gets a bit tricky, because we’re selling the house, and we don’t know exactly what we’re going to get for the house. So that will have an impact on whether we could stretch our budget.

Amelia Lee
Yeah, it’s a bit of a moving fees, isn’t it?

Jan
Yeah, so it’s a little bit unknown.

Amelia Lee
And the granny flat, I suppose, is it a satellite away from the house that’s self contained in a way, or is it something that you want to have some sense of connection with, like, in terms of how the design overall of the site works from an integrated point of view? What’s the view on that?

Jan
We want it to be within sight, and it would be the first thing that you would see when you came down our long driveway into our block of land. So that would be quite good for the person living there, because they have freedom of access in and out, without having to go through past our house. But it’s good for us, because we get to see them when we’re out in the garden and moving around. We had thought of putting it on top of the garage and studio, which sort of makes sense in terms of not using up the garden. But it also then looms, or would have loomed, over the house. And we’re already surrounded by houses, being a battle axe block, and we thought that might cut out a bit of light and make us feel even more overlooked. So we’re thinking of popping it up in the top corner so that the person living there could just drive in, and that’s where their little pad would be.

Amelia Lee
And so, are you then thinking that it’s separately metered as well?

Jan
I think so, yeah, I think so. Well that would makes sense then, if we had somebody in a community that needed accommodation, just makes it more flexible for that.

Amelia Lee
Yeah. And so, yeah, having it as a free standing building definitely sets that up, rather than it being that Fonzie flat approach or over the top of the garage. So there’s a few different options, and it’ll come down to, I suppose, what your quality expectations are and the aesthetics. I can imagine that the aesthetics will probably be impactful for you, given it’s going to be so visible when you come into your home, so I think that’s going to be a key criteria for you. And because just of the increase of granny flat development and the shifts in council regulations around whether they need to be approved or not, and just this general planning approach that we have to creating more density on existing sites, it can be a bit of the wild west out there in terms of granny flat build, which you probably dipped your toe into the water of already. And so I think finding somebody who is like-minded. 

I see that there’s a lot of companies out there that will say that they’re building sustainably, but if you prod a bit, it’s lip service. And I think because you’re so educated about what sustainability actually looks like and performs like, you’re going to be really well armed to have some informed conversations to test the alignment of these companies. 

In terms of if you went down a prefab route, in terms of the whole thing coming in as one element, the main thing will be to consider if that develops too many constraints for you from a design point of view and from a deliverability point of view. But being a battle axe block, looking at the clearance down the driveway, generally, if you look at tiny homes themselves, they’re generally around that 2.4 metres wide. You can get up to three metres and it not be too onerous for transport. But once you start getting over that, you start pushing into needing escorts and things like that to move it from wherever it’s been made to your site. And then you have to, of course, look at what’s the width and the height, not only from onto your block, but from everywhere. From the factory to your block, because obviously it has to get from one place to the other. So dealing with an expert, an experienced professional who has been doing this for a while, and particularly delivering around your regions, they’re going to be across those kinds of things. 

So I think that the appetite for prefab would be largely because it’s going to speed up the construction of it. It’s also going to be able to be quality controlled if it’s with a good operator inside a location. And it’s not going to be dependent on what’s going on on site, so you’re already totally across that with the way that you’re approaching the house. So that’s not going to be a massive learning curve for you, and it’s definitely something to consider. It’s not necessarily going to be any more affordable than it being built on site. I found that prefab on a square metre rate is not necessarily a lower cost way to go. Where you get the benefits is that it’s faster, quality controlled, and you get that instant result. So I think that if you’re not trying to compare an on-site solution price-wise with a prefab solution, but it’s more about speed and results, then that could definitely be worth looking at.

Jan
I thought that it would be cheaper. It seems cheaper, but they still have to fit them out anyway, don’t you?

Amelia Lee
Yeah. With the prefab, one thing that you do need to run to ground in terms of understanding and asking questions is, who actually manages the installation on site, and who manages the installation of all of the services infrastructure on site? So some prefab builders are purely plug and play, and so you have to still put all the footings in, run all the services infrastructure to the location, and they’re just basically then bringing in the prefab building, dropping it in and connecting it up. Their builder’s licence covers the building, but you’ve got to get somebody else to cover all of the installation of all of the services infrastructure, and they may or may not navigate all of the town planning hoops that you have to jump through in terms of submitting, if you do need a DA, you’re building approvals, all of those kinds of things. So understanding, when you’re chatting to a prefab builder, about what responsibility do they take on, is it from a start to finish, and their builder’s licence and their project management covers satisfying all of those things, or is this something you’re going to have to get your architect and existing builders help with to sort the gaps, and are your architect and will your current builder be happy to put parts of this on their licence and insurance, and navigate it that way? 

So there’s a passive house builder up from you in The Hunter, I think he’s located. And I have a feeling his name’s Evan Graham, who is doing these passive house pods that are really fantastic little buildings. He’s been featured in The Design Files and a raft of other publications. They’re quite compact, so they’re more of that tiny home size, but they might be worth exploring.

Jan
I haven’t heard of them. The things I’ve seen haven’t been that wonderful.

Amelia Lee
Yeah, they’re really lovely designed. And I’ll shoot the link to you afterwards this chat, and I’ll pop it in the resources for anybody listening or watching,so that they can have a check of it. But yeah, and there are some other good operators doing those prefab, modular kind of things. Arkular’s another one. Who else is there? There’s a few. There’s Modscapes all the way down in Melbourne, but there are some locals around New South Wales. If you go down the kit option, the only thing for me is that kit ones are always tricky, because, again, it’s about, as you’ve identified, the quality of the component tree and whether that’s in alignment with your quality standards. So you don’t want this granny flat to be the poor cousin.

Jan
No, I agree. And he’s also saying it needs to tie in, as you say, aesthetically, with what we’re doing. I mean, we can landscape around it, but it needs to be part of the whole environment, if you like. So we’ve put it in the too hard basket. There are so many movable parts to it that it became tricky. So it almost sounds like the best way of doing it would be to get our builder to build it. And if it was a little Passive House, that would be nice. But I do like the sound of this Passive House pod builder in the Hunter, so we’ll follow that up.

Amelia Lee
Yeah, that sounds good. And I think it’s interesting, I mean, you could go finding a plan that you like and seeing whether that’s a plan that you can use based on their copyright, and then getting your builder to price that. I mean, if the builder is doing Passive House prefab tilt up, you’ve got that 1250 module to work with, and you just choose something a very simple kind of construction, you might find it’s not based on your expectations. And when you start comparing what is actually out there on the marketplace for your expectations, yeah, you might find that once you start actually comparing apples with apples, and then it can be done as the part of the whole project, and you can get proper integration of services infrastructure and not have the headaches of navigating two different contracts with two different parties and trying to patch the gaps between and then not being sure about where the responsibilities lie…

Jan
It does complicate things, doesn’t it? And I think it has an implication about whether we go to the private certifier or the DA, I think that might have an impact on that as well. So yes, well, that gives us a lot of food for thought. Thank you.

Amelia Lee
That’s my pleasure.

Jan
So, have we got time to ask you just that the other question?

Amelia Lee
Go for it, yep.

Jan
First of all, we want the garden to be manageable, and it’s a big block, but we also want it to be integrated with the house. We’re wondering if we should get the landscape designer sooner rather than later? What would your recommendations be? And the only other thing that I wanted to add, which could be a bit tricky, is that the architect is quite interested in landscape design, and she’d quite like to do it. And I’m thinking I’d rather have someone who was a properly qualified landscape designer. And I’m normally very upfront about these things, but I’m finding this a slightly tricky thing to navigate.

Amelia Lee
Yeah, I can understand that. Everything that we’ve spoken about, and what I’m sensing from you in our conversation, is that the garden is as much a part of this experience of living here as the home itself. And I mean, landscape designers and landscape architects will generally recommend that you get them in as early as possible, because then they can create a truly integrated outcome that takes the built design into mind and creates a landscape design that is really well coordinated and integrated with that and really extends on the themes and the goals of the built design. 

For you, I think that it becomes even more important because the garden is such a part of your lifestyle in this home, and because you’ve got a bunch of criteria about it, in terms of it not just being, we spoke about the biodiversity, about wanting to see birds. It sounds like, because it’s a battle axe block, because that’s going to bring with it arrival and access and security management that is as much a part of the landscape solution as it is the built solution. And then, I think, it sounds like, because of the size of the block, it’d be interesting to see if the landscape designer perhaps looks at it and goes, well, maybe there’s a little bit of flexibility about exactly where we position the house and the granny flat. And shifting them slightly so that maybe sight lines and things like that are about the way that the garden integrates with those views, the privacy, and still, at the same time, you’re feeling like there’s some sense of connection. And I think too, then, plant species, overland flow, your drainage solutions, all of that kind of stuff become really important as part of that landscape.

Jan
We’re quite interested in rainwater harvesting and things on site. Talking about sight lines, it’s a really funny thing to be in a battle axe block, and we want to be connected with the street. And we happen to be lucky, we’ve got quite a wide driveway, nearly seven metres wide, and it’s right beside the next door neighbour’s driveway. So that makes it very wide. And on the other side of the neighbour is a Catholic church with a big circular driveway. So from some points of our block, when we’ve asked for the house to be placed so that we can actually, from front rooms, see up onto the street, and we can see church goers, we can see children coming home from school just a little bit. And it’s incredibly important to me. And the other thing want to do is to build a seat up near the letter box so that we can sit up there in the sun sometimes and watch the world go by. I don’t like the idea of being lands locked…

Amelia Lee
Locked away from everything, yeah.

Jan
Yeah. So from the street, there will be a sight of our place, and from our place, there’ll be a sight of the street. That’s a bonus, I think.

Amelia Lee
Yeah. Well, I think too, it sounds like there’s a lovely sense of how you actually do arrive into the block, because of the nature of it being a battle axe and because of those view lines. And so to me, the success of that is largely driven by the landscape solution. And so, you, of course, as you come down and you start to get more of the building, it’s not like where you’re on the street and you get to see the street facade all in one hit. So it will be more revealed to you. Yeah. And so I’d love to see how the landscape designer, and again, interviewing them is just like interviewing the architect. I’ve had conversations with HOME Method members who they brought the landscape designer in later in the process, and they’ve sort of been in the throes of things, and then just handled it a little bit more informally and not got the same kind of results of getting that alignment and that fit. And if you’ve got an architect who’s interested in landscape design, that can actually be hugely advantageous. So if she’s willing to relinquish some of the control over it, what I do love about architects who really do think about the landscape and the connection to the ground around them is they then start to think… You can have some architects who don’t think beyond the external walls. And so they’re not thinking about how levels are going to work from inside to outside. And so they’re not thinking about how that connection of landscapes going to help. 

So the fact that your architect is interested in this stuff, if they’re happy to let go and you have another consultant that you work with collaboratively, it could be really exciting because you’ll get that expertise of each of those disciplines. Because, again, the landscape designer is going to also have to understand how the builders working, the order of things too about when do we start actually? How do we work these levels? How do we reuse the dirt that might be coming out for the slab on site, so that you’re not having to take all of that away and pay for that expense? All of those kinds of things can be thought about from a design point of view, from a building planning point of view, from a budgeting point of view, and work really well. So it could be a really, really exciting collaboration that you see come to fruition when you get it right.

Jan
That’s exciting. And do you have any advice about landscape architects versus landscape designers? This is an area I don’t know very much about. I sort of understand a bit more about architects and designers in terms of training. What about in the landscaping world?

Amelia Lee
Yeah, it’s quite similar, actually. So landscape architecture is a university degree. It’s four years, from memory, and it is a very rigorous degree. And landscape designers have a different level of education. So there’s two really good podcast episodes in season four of the podcast. One is an interview with Luke Jones, who is a landscape architect. One is an interview with, at that time, it was Sticks and Stones, but they’ve since changed their name, that are landscape designers. And just in hearing them both talk about how they approach it, you can hear the difference of how landscape designers and landscape architects can work compared to each other. I think it’s really going to be about what you’re ultimately seeking, in terms of, are you largely looking for a really creative approach to how the overall landscape design works? Some people are more looking for they just want plant specifications, and they want to know where they’re going to be able to locate rainwater tanks and those kinds of things. And again, like every other industry, same thing as architects and designers, you’ll have people who are really good at what they do, and it won’t be linked to what their profession is. So I’d encourage you, the same process that you went through to find the architect that you have, and you’ve obviously done a really good job and found a really good fit, follow that similar process with looking for the landscape designer or architect as well.

Jan
I won’t have the questions, or could I use the same?

Amelia Lee
I think you’ll find a lot of them will still apply. Yeah.

Jan
Okay, so that’s a good idea.

Amelia Lee
The big thing is that they’re happily all conversing and communicating with each other. Because sometimes, in the process, I’ve watched some designers just try and silo it and the architectural drawings, for example, just get handed over to the landscape designer to then work with. And that feedback loop doesn’t come back in. You might find, depending on where you are in the process, but you did talk about the fact that you’re doing this sort of C shaped design, and you’ve got the veranda, but looking at how do you step off into the landscape where you do and how do you bring built elements into the landscape? Are there destinations where you want to go and sit and look back at the house? You talked about that seat up the front on the street. But equally, you might find that, based on the block and your experience of the block, there’s little pockets that you want to have as satellite experiences away from the home that have a particular kind of feel and environment about them because of the way that the hardscape is, or the softscape, or the planting arrangement, or perhaps you’ve got a water feature or something like that. So thinking all of those things through becomes really exciting to make sure that you’re thinking about the block from boundary to boundary, not just from the external walls of your house.

Jan
Okay, and we need them to be able to work together with the architect. I guess that there has to be a fit there, but hopefully, if we pick a good one, then they’ll be all professional enough to work together. Yeah. Thank you very much.

Amelia Lee
That’s my pleasure. Did you have anything else before we wrap up?

Jan
Don’t think so. Have you got anything left?

Landon
No.

Jan
We’ve covered a lot.

Landon
Yep.

Amelia Lee
That’s awesome.

Landon
It’s been very good, as usual.

Amelia Lee
It’s been such great conversation, and so lovely getting to meet you both on Zoom and have this conversation. I’ve loved hearing more about your project. I’ve, of course, seen your questions in the Facebook community along the way, but I love having these conversations to be able to really dive into the details. And I look forward to getting you back on at some point in the future to give us an update.

Jan
When we’ve moved along, yeah.

Amelia Lee
To hear where you’ve got to. And yeah, I just wish you the very best. It’s just so exciting to think what you’re creating for yourself, not only the beautiful place that you’ll get to live, but the lifestyle that you get to lead in it and those that you share it with. So I’m really, really looking forward to it, and I thank you so much both for being here and making the time to share so generously with us about your project. So thanks so much.

Landon
It’s always uplifting to listen to you.

Amelia Lee|
Oh, that’s very kind of you.

Jan
Whenever we’ve had a little bit of nerves, Landon’s like, “I think we need to go and listen to Amelia.” You calm us down. Voice of reason, okay. So thank you for letting us be part of it.

Amelia Lee
That’s my pleasure. Think of me as your personal cheer squad.

Jan
That’s right, exactly.

Amelia Lee
Awesome. Thanks so much.

RESOURCES

Want to listen to Part 1 of my conversation with Jan and Landon. Head to Episode 338 here >>> https://undercoverarchitect.com/podcast-gardens-grandkids-sustainability-building-new-home-jan-landon/ 

Listen to more of our homeowner stories on the podcast here >>> https://undercoverarchitect.com/tag/home-method/ 

Want to learn more about Passive House? Check out these episodes from Season 8 >>>>

Please note: These are the companies I mentioned in the podcast episode. I have not personally used these companies, however they came to mind as Jan and Landon discussed sustainability goals for their granny flats. There are many companies doing sustainable projects like this, so these are only a couple of suggestions. Please do your own research and due diligence.

Passive Prefab (designed by Steele Olney and built by Evan Graham) >>> https://www.passiveprefab.net/

Article on Passive Prefab on The Design Files >>> https://thedesignfiles.net/2024/03/architecture-passive-pod-studio-dot

I also mentioned Arkular in this episode >>> https://arkular.com/

Access the support and guidance you need to be confident and empowered when renovating and building your family home inside my flagship online program, HOME METHOD >>> https://undercoverarchitect.com/courses/the-home-method/ 

Learn more about how to interview and select the right builder with the Choose Your Builder mini-course >>> https://undercoverarchitect.com/courses/choose-your-builder

Access my free online workshop “Your Project Plan” >>> https://undercoverarchitect.com/projectplan 

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